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  #1 (permalink)  
Old October 27th, 2012, 12:18 AM
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Default Unable to do back to back cruises

Hi
We live in australia and would like to do 3 back to back cruises but have been told that we cant due to a American Immigration law called the "Jones Act" we would be unable to do all three of these sailings back to back. A minimum of one night on land is required between each sailing & you are unable to get off one & re-board another within the same day. Is this true

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Old October 27th, 2012, 12:33 AM
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Hi
We live in australia and would like to do 3 back to back cruises but have been told that we cant due to a American Immigration law called the "Jones Act" we would be unable to do all three of these sailings back to back. A minimum of one night on land is required between each sailing & you are unable to get off one & re-board another within the same day. Is this true

Regards
Bernie
Yes, it's true, but it's actually the PVSA, the Jones Act pertains to cargo. In a nut shell, it's illegal to start and end a cruise in two different US ports without hitting a Foreign Distant port. Can you post the three cruises you're looking at...we might be able to come up with some legal alternatives for you.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 12:59 AM
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25 April Honolulu to Ensenada for 11 Nights
6 May West Coast Wine Cruise (Ensenada to Seattle)
9 Nights 17 May Alaska Tracy Arm Fjord Cruise (Seattle to Seattle) 7 Nights
It the one between the Honolulu to Ensenada and the Ensenada wine cruise which I dont understand because Ensenada Mexico the other one We have two nights in Seattle before we get on the crusie to Alaska
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Old October 27th, 2012, 01:08 AM
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The issue comes into play before the third cruise. Maybe first twomhavenyou sailing from Honolulu to Seattle which is no no without a foreign DISTANT port, Ensenada doesn't cut it, you'd have to hit South America to make it legal. Tons of people are having issues with this one.

Let me dig around to see if there are alternatives. You could possibly get off in Ensenada, take the ships transfer to San Diego and take another ship up to Vancouver to do Alaska.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 01:15 AM
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On both May 6 and 7 there are 4 day HAL cruises from San Diego to Vancouver..or just fly up here from San Diego to pick up an Alaska Cruise. There is no getting around that Solstice cruise...sorry
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Old October 27th, 2012, 06:23 PM
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Let your agent find out about this for you. Personally, I've not heard about this - so it's a new one on me.

If you leave Honolulu and go to Ensenada, that counts as a foreign port, which is why they go to Ensenada and not directly to another U.S. port. Then when you leave Ensenada and go to Seattle, again, this qualifies as being in one foreign port. And then when you leave Seattle to do an Alaskan cruise, one of the ports is in Canada, which again satisfies the foreign port requirement.

There are some Hawaiian cruises that will do a roundtrip from LA - they leave LA, go to Hawaii, then make a 3 or 4 hour stop in Ensenada, and return back to LA. This satisfies all the requirements of stopping in a foreign port.

So again, don't know where you're getting your information, but I don't believe it should be a problem. I've not personally encountered this exact situation, but I would definitely have your agent find out the specific requirements about this and it'll be interesting to hear what they have to say.

If it wasn't the weekend, I'd call my brother-in-law at the State Department and see if I could get some information on this as it sounds interesting to say the least.

Pete
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Old October 28th, 2012, 02:04 AM
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Ensenada is not a foreign distant port. The cruise in question is totally illegal. You cannot cruise from Honolulu to Seattle without hitting a foreign DISTANT port.

As a travel agent, you're scaring me. There are two rules...one US port to a different US port..le...Honolulu to Seattle, you need to hit a foreign distant port..a return to the same US port you only need to hit a foreign port which is why the LA return Hawaii cruises hit Ensenada or why the Seattle return Alaska cruises hit Victoria.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 04:19 AM
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Let your travel agent do the work. They will tell you what the cruise lines are telling them. The cruise lines have the responsibility and they will tell you what is permitted. If you go to an online service and you book by each part of the trip you may not find out about a problem without wasting a lot of time.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cruise planner View Post
Let your agent find out about this for you. Personally, I've not heard about this - so it's a new one on me.

If you leave Honolulu and go to Ensenada, that counts as a foreign port, which is why they go to Ensenada and not directly to another U.S. port. Then when you leave Ensenada and go to Seattle, again, this qualifies as being in one foreign port. And then when you leave Seattle to do an Alaskan cruise, one of the ports is in Canada, which again satisfies the foreign port requirement.

There are some Hawaiian cruises that will do a roundtrip from LA - they leave LA, go to Hawaii, then make a 3 or 4 hour stop in Ensenada, and return back to LA. This satisfies all the requirements of stopping in a foreign port.

So again, don't know where you're getting your information, but I don't believe it should be a problem. I've not personally encountered this exact situation, but I would definitely have your agent find out the specific requirements about this and it'll be interesting to hear what they have to say.

If it wasn't the weekend, I'd call my brother-in-law at the State Department and see if I could get some information on this as it sounds interesting to say the least.

Pete
Totally wrong. Sorry.

It's a violation...no doubt
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernie&Sandra View Post
25 April Honolulu to Ensenada for 11 Nights
6 May West Coast Wine Cruise (Ensenada to Seattle)
9 Nights 17 May Alaska Tracy Arm Fjord Cruise (Seattle to Seattle) 7 Nights
It the one between the Honolulu to Ensenada and the Ensenada wine cruise which I dont understand because Ensenada Mexico the other one We have two nights in Seattle before we get on the crusie to Alaska
Number two is the one that is the problem. Ensenada is not considered a "distant" foreign port. For cruises that end in Ensenada you are bused back to the U.S. (usually San Diego).

I hope there is some other alternative that can be worked out with your agent. Perhaps there is a Los Angeles/San Diego cruise that ends in Vancouver.

Take care and I hope it works out.
Mike
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:20 AM
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It's the Honolulu to Seattle that is the problem.

If he was just doing legs 2 & 3 he would be fine. Ensenada to Seattle is allowed.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Snoozeman View Post
It's the Honolulu to Seattle that is the problem.

If he was just doing legs 2 & 3 he would be fine. Ensenada to Seattle is allowed.
Yes: The PSVA will keep long threads going forever.

I agree that it is Honolulu to Seattle that is the problem but the cruise that makes that happen is Ensenada to Seattle. PSVA looks at the B2B2B as one cruise and Ensenada does not fulfill the "distant foreign port" porvision.

There are cruises from Ensenada to Seattle that are allowed because they start in foreign country. Just like a Vancouver to Los Angeles cruise is allowed.

Regardless: It's Ensenada that's the problem.

Take care,
Mike
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Old October 28th, 2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Trackypup View Post
Ensenada is not a foreign distant port. The cruise in question is totally illegal. You cannot cruise from Honolulu to Seattle without hitting a foreign DISTANT port.

As a travel agent, you're scaring me. There are two rules...one US port to a different US port..le...Honolulu to Seattle, you need to hit a foreign distant port..a return to the same US port you only need to hit a foreign port which is why the LA return Hawaii cruises hit Ensenada or why the Seattle return Alaska cruises hit Victoria.
Pup is 100% correct.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Yes Pup is absolutely right.

BTW--Encenada is moot. Doesn't have any effect at all. As you say it's the overall cruise not the port of Encenada itself. It's still a violation because of the Honolulu to Seattle.

I will have a new congressman in November so I'll have to let him know my feelings on establishing a cruise ship exemption. The last guy didn't do anything. The only way it will change if enough of us contact our reps.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 03:43 PM
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Boy, don't I feel foolish! I gave my brother-in-law a call and while talking to him I re-read the original post and realized I completely missed the very first part about being from Australia. Needless to say, he got a good laugh at my expense. VERY long day yesterday. My apologies.

The comments are correct about the PVSA not allowing a foreign national going from Honolulu to Seattle in this situation. If it were on different ships, you could do it, but it's the B2B part on the same ship that causes the problems.

As was suggested, you might just want to take a shuttle up to San Diego and try another cruise. Or perhaps rent a car and drive up the coast. It's an amazing drive. Or you could take the train, which is very popular.

But back to the PVSA, it was enacted in 1886 and is totally outdated. The one thing that really gets me is that CLIA (the Cruise Lines International Association) is not endorsing, supporting, or advocating any modifications to the act. Personally, I think amending it would benefit not only U.S. commerce, but would make it easier for foreign nationals, who spend alot of money in the U.S. And after all, in today's economy, shouldn't we do everything we can to encourage people spending money in the U.S.?

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Old October 28th, 2012, 06:41 PM
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U.S. citizens can't do it either. Being a foreign national really doesn't matter.

Wish it was different.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 08:54 PM
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U.S. citizens can't do it either. Being a foreign national really doesn't matter.

Wish it was different.
Snoozeman; you are being too kind; you don't need to say "really."
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:19 PM
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Thank you for all your information we are now looking at doing the following hope this is leagal lol
flying to Las Vegas for 3 nights then onto New Orleans for one night before picking up a Royal Caribbean (Navigator of the Sea) doing around trip stoping at Cozumel Mexico, George Town, Grand Cayman, Falmouth, Jamaica then back to New Orleans and saying on ship which then leaves to go to Rome the the same day,
Will this be legal to do this and if so can anyone tell us about the ship Navigator of the Sea ie what are the cabins like and dinning areas

Regards
Bernie
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Thank you for all your information we are now looking at doing the following hope this is leagal lol
flying to Las Vegas for 3 nights then onto New Orleans for one night before picking up a Royal Caribbean (Navigator of the Sea) doing around trip stoping at Cozumel Mexico, George Town, Grand Cayman, Falmouth, Jamaica then back to New Orleans and saying on ship which then leaves to go to Rome the the same day,
Will this be legal to do this and if so can anyone tell us about the ship Navigator of the Sea ie what are the cabins like and dinning areas

Regards
Bernie
Totally legal, what an awesome itinerary. Enjoy.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Just so happens I have 6 people who just booked the Celebrity Solstice from Honolulu to Ensenada on the April 25th sailing, so I asked Celebrity about doing the back to back. It was confirmed you cannot do it, but I asked them if you could get off the ship in Ensenada, take the complimentary shuttle to San Diego, spend the night, and board the ship there. They said you could do this, so perhaps this presents another option for you to consider.

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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:39 PM
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Just so happens I have 6 people who just booked the Celebrity Solstice from Honolulu to Ensenada on the April 25th sailing, so I asked Celebrity about doing the back to back. It was confirmed you cannot do it, but I asked them if you could get off the ship in Ensenada, take the complimentary shuttle to San Diego, spend the night, and board the ship there. They said you could do this, so perhaps this presents another option for you to consider.

Pete
Whoever you spoke to is an idiot. Sailing from San Diego to Seattle is just as illegal as Honolulu to Seattle.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 06:07 PM
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Whoever you spoke to is an idiot. Sailing from San Diego to Seattle is just as illegal as Honolulu to Seattle.
Yup....both still in the USA.

(Mike: Ensenanda never the problem...they just terminated cruise there because they could not go direct to San Diego)
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:02 PM
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what they told me. The B2B supervisor transferred me to the supervisor in charge of Emergency Assistance - they are the ones responsible for this. I didn't think this was possible, but when I asked the supervisor about going from San Diego to Seattle, he explained that the PVSA refers to the ship and not the passenger. (His words, not mine.) He seemed educated on the matter as he further explained if the passenger were to travel from Honolulu to Ensenada, then change ships and continue on to Seattle, that would be perfectly legal and not present the same problem as going from Honolulu to Ensenada to Seattle on the same ship. He said they do this on a regular basis because people are always either missing a departure and have to get the ship at another port or have to leave the ship early due to emergencies.

I'm the first to admit I'm not an expert on the PVSA, but if you guys are, then more power to you. Personally, I don't pretend to understand the laws as to what they can or cannot do. So when it comes to this stuff, I have to rely on what they say. If you disagree with what they're saying, you'll have to talk directly to them. I just happened to be on the phone and asked the question because it got my curiosity up.

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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:27 PM
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Yup....both still in the USA.

(Mike: Ensenanda never the problem...they just terminated cruise there because they could not go direct to San Diego)
OK Ray:

I understand. The end points are what make it illegal and I believe I said that. Yes: Ensenada is not the reason the B2B2B violates the PSVA. However, Ensenada it is not considered a Far Foreign Port and makes that port invalid in the overall scenario. The second cruise, Ensenada to Seattle, is why someone may believe that it would not violate the PVSA because it is stop in a foreign port.

Maybe they can swing by Fanning Island and fix it all.

Take care,
Mike
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:58 PM
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what they told me. The B2B supervisor transferred me to the supervisor in charge of Emergency Assistance - they are the ones responsible for this. I didn't think this was possible, but when I asked the supervisor about going from San Diego to Seattle, he explained that the PVSA refers to the ship and not the passenger. (His words, not mine.) He seemed educated on the matter as he further explained if the passenger were to travel from Honolulu to Ensenada, then change ships and continue on to Seattle, that would be perfectly legal and not present the same problem as going from Honolulu to Ensenada to Seattle on the same ship. He said they do this on a regular basis because people are always either missing a departure and have to get the ship at another port or have to leave the ship early due to emergencies.

I'm the first to admit I'm not an expert on the PVSA, but if you guys are, then more power to you. Personally, I don't pretend to understand the laws as to what they can or cannot do. So when it comes to this stuff, I have to rely on what they say. If you disagree with what they're saying, you'll have to talk directly to them. I just happened to be on the phone and asked the question because it got my curiosity up.

Pete
You definitely could change ships, but you'll never find one going from San Diego to Seattle. They'd have to find a San Diego to Vancouver.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM
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You definitely could change ships, but you'll never find one going from San Diego to Seattle. They'd have to find a San Diego to Vancouver.
Yeah, I'm aware of the different ship. In fact, they could get off the Solstice and immediately get on another ship in Ensenada and head to Seattle. Obviously, in this case, that's not an option. But the supervisor said they could board the Solstice in San Diego the day after they got off of her in Ensenada. Didn't make sense to me, but he was very specific about it being allowed.

Pete
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:27 PM
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Yeah, I'm aware of the different ship. In fact, they could get off the Solstice and immediately get on another ship in Ensenada and head to Seattle. Obviously, in this case, that's not an option. But the supervisor said they could board the Solstice in San Diego the day after they got off of her in Ensenada. Didn't make sense to me, but he was very specific about it being allowed.

Pete
It's actually all Solstice's fault, she's too bloody big to fit into Vancouver. This would be moot if she could get under our bridge.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 01:40 AM
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Out of curiosity, I had another person ask me about a similar cruise, except it was Honolulu to Alaska. This is what they asked me....

Just a question. Is it a violation of the Jones Act to do back to back cruise as follows:

Los Angeles to Hawaii to Vancouver and then Vancouver to Alaska to Seattle.


I said "illegal" because it starts & ends in US ports. They replied...

We booked these on Carnival as separate cruises and received confirmations for both cruises. (There was nothing on their website that prevented us from doing this and there was no notation on either of the cruises that this was a violation.) Then after we received the confirmations from Carnival, we booked and paid for our airfare. About four or five days later, Carnival informed us that we would have to cancel one or both cruises. In your opinion should Carnival do anything to help us out?

I said "I doubt that they will, although they should."

Now I am curious. Is Victoria BC considered a "distant foreign port?"
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Old January 9th, 2014, 02:51 AM
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Victoria BC is not.

I had friends that had two similar reservations on Carnival a few years ago and the same happened. LA to Vancouver repo and then Vancouver/Alaska/Seattle. A violation as it was ultimately LA to Seattle. Carnival asked them cancel one and they did, I thought they should have just done it.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 07:05 PM
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What you're referring to is the Passenger Vessel Services Act and it specifically says, ".....in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America." It further goes on to say this includes Central America, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean, with the exception of Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao.

This explains why Ensenada and Vancouver do not qualify as a 'distant foreign port'.

This is also why Panama Canal cruises stop in Cartagena, Columbia as this is considered South America and satisfies the 'distant port' requirement.

What I don't understand is that the Act calls for a $300 fine to the cruise line for each passenger not adhering to the 'distant foreign port' part of this. So why not just tell people who want to book something like this that there is an extra $300 fee to do the two b2b cruises?

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